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	<title>Comments on: Rejecting the frames</title>
	<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2142</link>
		<author>Mnemosyne</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2142</guid>
		<description>There's something odd about the American character that we seem to get very caught up in food- and weight-related fads.  And I'm not talking about only the last few years -- it goes back to at least &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg" rel="nofollow"&gt;John Harvey Kellogg&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_Graham" rel="nofollow"&gt;Sylvester Graham&lt;/a&gt; if not further.  And it's always been a weird combination of food obsession and sexual obsession:  the graham cracker was invented to try and stop people from masturbating.  Seriously.

There's a reason why accusations of being "fat" and "slutty" are essentially the same, and it's not because people are virtuously concerned about your health or well-being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s something odd about the American character that we seem to get very caught up in food- and weight-related fads.  And I&#8217;m not talking about only the last few years &#8212; it goes back to at least <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg" rel="nofollow">John Harvey Kellogg</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_Graham" rel="nofollow">Sylvester Graham</a> if not further.  And it&#8217;s always been a weird combination of food obsession and sexual obsession:  the graham cracker was invented to try and stop people from masturbating.  Seriously.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a reason why accusations of being &#8220;fat&#8221; and &#8220;slutty&#8221; are essentially the same, and it&#8217;s not because people are virtuously concerned about your health or well-being.</p>
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		<title>By: Meowser</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2117</link>
		<author>Meowser</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2117</guid>
		<description>Bunny videos are cool.  Especially if you can find some fat bunnies.  "See?  All I ate was carrots and celery, and look at my giant fuzzy ass!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bunny videos are cool.  Especially if you can find some fat bunnies.  &#8220;See?  All I ate was carrots and celery, and look at my giant fuzzy ass!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2116</link>
		<author>Thomas</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2116</guid>
		<description>Amanda, &lt;em&gt;exactly&lt;/em&gt;.  It's a "model minority" argument to argue that some fat people are the good kind.  And MM special pleading ends at worst in lip service, and at best in a big 'ol toss under the bus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amanda, <em>exactly</em>.  It&#8217;s a &#8220;model minority&#8221; argument to argue that some fat people are the good kind.  And MM special pleading ends at worst in lip service, and at best in a big &#8216;ol toss under the bus.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2115</link>
		<author>Amanda Marcotte</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2115</guid>
		<description>You've put your finger on what bothers me about the defensive weight loss posturing.  It's really the "credit to your race" argument, the belief that black people get rights IF they wear ties and IF they go to church and IF they fulfill a litany of standards white people are not required to fulfill for rights.  You see it everywhere, from childless people being required to say they love children to justify themselves, to gay people having to say they want to get married and settle down, to rape victims who only "count" if they were pure and virginal.

But we all know it's not about health.  If I started smoking, I'd get less guff over it from the great unwashed concern trolls of the world than if I put on 50 pounds, though the latter in safer beyond a shadow of a doubt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve put your finger on what bothers me about the defensive weight loss posturing.  It&#8217;s really the &#8220;credit to your race&#8221; argument, the belief that black people get rights IF they wear ties and IF they go to church and IF they fulfill a litany of standards white people are not required to fulfill for rights.  You see it everywhere, from childless people being required to say they love children to justify themselves, to gay people having to say they want to get married and settle down, to rape victims who only &#8220;count&#8221; if they were pure and virginal.</p>
<p>But we all know it&#8217;s not about health.  If I started smoking, I&#8217;d get less guff over it from the great unwashed concern trolls of the world than if I put on 50 pounds, though the latter in safer beyond a shadow of a doubt.</p>
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		<title>By: Zuzu</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2114</link>
		<author>Zuzu</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2114</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And so there’s that temptation when the concern trolls come by to say, no, uh-uh, I’m not responsible for my weight…never realizing that we’re hinting that maybe, some others are.&lt;/i&gt;

I never liked this kind of argument, either.  I know exactly how I got fat -- I ate too much and exercised too little.  There's nothing terribly wrong with my metabolism, and while I can blame some of the gain I've undergone on Prozac (I gained 20 pounds in a month without altering my diet or exercise habits), the rest of it was due to a combination of eating too much, drinking too much and not exercising enough.  I certainly have reasons for each of those -- between an ankle/knee injury that kept me from exercising and a bad breakup/9/11/putting my dog down/mother dying/roommate from hell/more bad breakups/family bullshit/career crisis not at all helped by the spiraling depression that went unmedicated due to wanting to avoid further weight gain and just not having insurance.

But in the end, it really doesn't matter. I can take responsibility for my present weight (because really -- who else had anything to do with it?) and still stand up and demand that I be treated as a human being.  Because I shouldn't have to pass a behavior test to get treated with dignity at the doctor, or be able to protest the kind of nasty move that Old Navy did, booting the plus-sized section out of the store an onto the internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And so there’s that temptation when the concern trolls come by to say, no, uh-uh, I’m not responsible for my weight…never realizing that we’re hinting that maybe, some others are.</i></p>
<p>I never liked this kind of argument, either.  I know exactly how I got fat &#8212; I ate too much and exercised too little.  There&#8217;s nothing terribly wrong with my metabolism, and while I can blame some of the gain I&#8217;ve undergone on Prozac (I gained 20 pounds in a month without altering my diet or exercise habits), the rest of it was due to a combination of eating too much, drinking too much and not exercising enough.  I certainly have reasons for each of those &#8212; between an ankle/knee injury that kept me from exercising and a bad breakup/9/11/putting my dog down/mother dying/roommate from hell/more bad breakups/family bullshit/career crisis not at all helped by the spiraling depression that went unmedicated due to wanting to avoid further weight gain and just not having insurance.</p>
<p>But in the end, it really doesn&#8217;t matter. I can take responsibility for my present weight (because really &#8212; who else had anything to do with it?) and still stand up and demand that I be treated as a human being.  Because I shouldn&#8217;t have to pass a behavior test to get treated with dignity at the doctor, or be able to protest the kind of nasty move that Old Navy did, booting the plus-sized section out of the store an onto the internet.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Fecke</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2113</link>
		<author>Jeff Fecke</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 06:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2113</guid>
		<description>The problem with rejecting the frame is, of course, that fat people are as deep into our fat-shaming society as anyone, and while we may not want to buy it, we still find ourselves believing, deep down, that we are inferior because of our weight.  It's not right, mind you, but self-hatred is endemic in the fat community; how could it not be?

And so there's that temptation when the concern trolls come by to say, no, uh-uh, I'm not responsible for my weight...never realizing that we're hinting that maybe, some others are.

You're right, we need to stop buying into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with rejecting the frame is, of course, that fat people are as deep into our fat-shaming society as anyone, and while we may not want to buy it, we still find ourselves believing, deep down, that we are inferior because of our weight.  It&#8217;s not right, mind you, but self-hatred is endemic in the fat community; how could it not be?</p>
<p>And so there&#8217;s that temptation when the concern trolls come by to say, no, uh-uh, I&#8217;m not responsible for my weight&#8230;never realizing that we&#8217;re hinting that maybe, some others are.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, we need to stop buying into it.</p>
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		<title>By: Zuzu</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2112</link>
		<author>Zuzu</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 05:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2112</guid>
		<description>Oh, I totally get that, and I think it's very much worthwhile pointing out that weight is not the same thing as health.  But I think that there's a time and a place for doing so, and I don't think that time or place is in response to a health-concern troll.  Because the whole point of those trolls is to get you to start talking about health rather than injustice.  If you can tie in both, great -- and that's how the responses to the trolls usually start out.  But then there's an inevitable deterioration as the troll digs in, and suddenly everyone's saying how healthy and virtuous their habits are.  Which kind of gets far away from the point, no?

I suppose one of the best responses to one of those trolls is simply, "What's it to you?"  That, or bunny videos.  And if I could figure out how to post videos in comments, I'd definitely do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I totally get that, and I think it&#8217;s very much worthwhile pointing out that weight is not the same thing as health.  But I think that there&#8217;s a time and a place for doing so, and I don&#8217;t think that time or place is in response to a health-concern troll.  Because the whole point of those trolls is to get you to start talking about health rather than injustice.  If you can tie in both, great &#8212; and that&#8217;s how the responses to the trolls usually start out.  But then there&#8217;s an inevitable deterioration as the troll digs in, and suddenly everyone&#8217;s saying how healthy and virtuous their habits are.  Which kind of gets far away from the point, no?</p>
<p>I suppose one of the best responses to one of those trolls is simply, &#8220;What&#8217;s it to you?&#8221;  That, or bunny videos.  And if I could figure out how to post videos in comments, I&#8217;d definitely do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Fatadelic</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2111</link>
		<author>Fatadelic</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 05:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2111</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Fat&#160;Bashing&lt;/strong&gt;

Zuzu has some thoughtful points about the recent fat bashing comment-fest at Feministing.  She observes that in the face of the fat-kills-you-unhealthy-fatty rant that people begin to try to absolve themselves from the sin of Fat (be a &#8220;worthy fa...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Fat&nbsp;Bashing</strong></p>
<p>Zuzu has some thoughtful points about the recent fat bashing comment-fest at Feministing.  She observes that in the face of the fat-kills-you-unhealthy-fatty rant that people begin to try to absolve themselves from the sin of Fat (be a &#8220;worthy fa&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Meowser</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2110</link>
		<author>Meowser</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2110</guid>
		<description>You make a good point, Zuzu, and it's one that comes up in size-acceptance circles a lot.  Yeah, stereotype-busting is important, because in part that's how people come to see us (gradually, gradually) (if they've the capacity to do so) as individuals, rather than as just another Brick in the Wall of Fatties.  And you cannot imagine how happy my fat ass was when Jessica posted that, despite her slim figure, she was in no way any kind of Healthy Lifestyle Poster Girl.  Good.  We need thin people to bust the stereotypes too.

But like you said -- and like I said on Feministing -- should I need a note from my frigging doctor saying I have a metabolic disorder before I get to be free of prejudice?  Why is it okay for skinny people to spend all night on a frigging barstool inhaling 1500 calories worth of alcohol and stagger into work the next day with a hangover four times a week, but if I eat so much as one chocolate eclair in a month I'm responsible for bankrupting the entire healthcare system and destroying the planet through global warming to boot?  (I really LOVE the "fatties are ruining the environment" meme too, lemme tell ya.  I'm SO sure Michelle Malkin is protecting the planet so much effectively than I am.)  Why are thin people, and only thin people, allowed to be "not perfect" when it comes to how they spend their spare time, while we fatasses are treated like not very bright children who have to prove we've done all our homework and not bitten anyone at school before we're allowed outside to play?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a good point, Zuzu, and it&#8217;s one that comes up in size-acceptance circles a lot.  Yeah, stereotype-busting is important, because in part that&#8217;s how people come to see us (gradually, gradually) (if they&#8217;ve the capacity to do so) as individuals, rather than as just another Brick in the Wall of Fatties.  And you cannot imagine how happy my fat ass was when Jessica posted that, despite her slim figure, she was in no way any kind of Healthy Lifestyle Poster Girl.  Good.  We need thin people to bust the stereotypes too.</p>
<p>But like you said &#8212; and like I said on Feministing &#8212; should I need a note from my frigging doctor saying I have a metabolic disorder before I get to be free of prejudice?  Why is it okay for skinny people to spend all night on a frigging barstool inhaling 1500 calories worth of alcohol and stagger into work the next day with a hangover four times a week, but if I eat so much as one chocolate eclair in a month I&#8217;m responsible for bankrupting the entire healthcare system and destroying the planet through global warming to boot?  (I really LOVE the &#8220;fatties are ruining the environment&#8221; meme too, lemme tell ya.  I&#8217;m SO sure Michelle Malkin is protecting the planet so much effectively than I am.)  Why are thin people, and only thin people, allowed to be &#8220;not perfect&#8221; when it comes to how they spend their spare time, while we fatasses are treated like not very bright children who have to prove we&#8217;ve done all our homework and not bitten anyone at school before we&#8217;re allowed outside to play?</p>
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		<title>By: Feministe &#187; Rejecting the frames</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2109</link>
		<author>Feministe &#187; Rejecting the frames</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/11/18/rejecting-the-frames/#comment-2109</guid>
		<description>[...] (cross posted from here.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] (cross posted from here.) [&#8230;]</p>
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