I can’t believe I just read this. From a thread on Feministing responding to a cute video of Jessica’s puppy Monty, in which several people excoriated Jessica for getting Monty from a breeder, and demanded she justify her decision because she’s a feminist and dog breeding is somehow a core feminist issue:
There is absolutely no need to breed animals for profit, be them for pets or meat. It’s slavery and it’s wrong.
I just — that’s offensive to me on so many levels; I simply can’t imagine how that feels to someone whose ancestors survived the Middle Passage only to be sold at auction and kept in bondage for the rest of their lives; someone whose relatives in living memory were denied civil rights, equal access to education, and subject to lynching for nothing more than looking at a white person funny.
That’s just so willfully blindly privileged, and tin-eared, and utterly cruel, and racist all at the same time. But I suppose, given PETA’s history of racist and anti-Semitic ads, where images of black slaves and Jewish inmates at extermination camps were set alongside images of cattle going down a chute or chickens in battery cages, that this is not so uncommon an attitude among the animal-rights set. From Steve’s* post about Ingrid Newkirk’s dismissive response to the objection of James Cameron, the director of America’s Black Holocaust Museum to PETA’s “Slavery” campaign: (my emphasis)
Remember, [Dr.] Cameron almost died at the hands of a lynch mob. They were screaming “get the nigger” and had yanked him out of his cell. Only the lone voice of a woman saying “leave that boy alone” saved his life. But this harrowing experience means nothing to Newkirk, his pain is irrelevant to her. I thought I had seen cruel responses to Mrs. Sheehan. But this tops them. By a mile.
It’s the same kind of ignorant cruelty Cindy Sheehan is facing. Newkirk is simply incapable, like most fanatics, of seeing any side but her own. And she is blind to the outrage this will cause. She has no idea of how her response is not going to go over with black people. Even her explaination is as tone deaf as George Bush. That may go over well with her donors and allies when she makes a mistake, but it will fall on deaf ears with black people. I dare her to defend this on any black radio show, or even Air America.
Now, not only is PETA refusing to apologize, as they did with the Holocaust ad, they intend to continue the tour, well until they’re denounced on Tom Joyner and from church pulpits. To compare black people to animals is the gravest insult a white person can do, and no matter how “liberal” PETA says it is, this will dog it until their tour is cancelled. Because she is fucking with something she does not understand in any way, shape or form. Angry isn’t the word. I’d be surprised if Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton aren’t outside PETA HQ at the end of the week.
So, given that this is the mentality of PETA’s leadership, do you think it’s fair to call them racist, now?
Somehow, it’s even crueler when the animal in question is not a steer being led to the slaughterhouse, but a well-loved puppy from a responsible breeder.
I’m just gobsmacked.
* God, I miss Steve.
My ethical philosophy is, at rock bottom, non-cognitivist: I don’t think that an “ought” proposition can ever logically arise from an “is,” so that all ethical statements are really values or preferences; even the ones we would lay down our lives for. So from that, I conclude that there is no point in trying to argue people out of their core positions — and when I discuss anything with people whose fundamental values are incompattible with mine, I do so generally as an exercise in rhetoric or polemic: for an audience, rather than for benefit of my interlocutor.
I expect many radfems, for example, to have positions that I disagree with on porn, where I’m in the mushy middle and disagree with just about everyone. But I share enough fundamental common ground that we can understand each other, and have significant points of agreement.
Someone who thinks not only that animals have rights, but that, literally, animals are people, too?
There is simply nothing to talk about. The assumption is so contrary to my views that we might as well speak no common language.
*Le sigh* Feministing used to be so cool, but lately it’s been taken over by maniacs.
Sorry Moxie!
We’re doing our best.
To reiterate what I said over at Feministing, I completely agree with you Zuzu. There’s is another point to highlight. My ancestors, those who were slaves, were also the ones who had to do the breeding of livestock and foul for sole purpose of selling and consuming. They were also the ones who had to do the killing the animals and preparation of the meat, so that their “owners” could sell it to others. To some point, by calling breeding “slavery”, is to suggest that the slaves themselves were slavemasters. Even though I understand that’s not the point the posters were trying to say, but with the over simplification of the word “slavery” that’s what can be interpreted.
To connect the conversation to present day, I am bothered by the breeding=slavery statement, because several of my relatives in my parents’ native country breed livestock and foul as their primary source of income. That statement is a complete insult to them, considering the fact that they are modest, hard-working individuals, as well as many others who depend on this income; otherwise, they would be living day-to-day, in severely f*cked up conditions (read: no water, no electricity, no plumbing, houses made out of tin, dirt ground as their floors, etc., and I am in no way, shape or form exaggerating).
One person’s maniac is another person’s eloquent defender of principles. The animal rights crowd probably feels that Feministing is run by reactionary ignorami who haven’t adequately examined their human priviledges.
Laying aside for a moment our thoughts on the relative merits of feminism, anti-racism and animal rights activism, is this inquisition of Jessica’s attitude toward breeders by animal-rights acitivists a different phenomenon than an inquisition of the agenda of white feminists by POC feminists? Both are examples of people, whose personal set of feminismt ideas have differing origins and outlooks, taking issue when another person’s (Jessica’s) personal feminist ideas don’t match up with theirs on an intersectional issue that’s of greater importance to them. People draw their lines about what is acceptable in different places based on their own experiences and values.
You and I may look at it and see these animal rights arguments as ridiculous and as a cheapening affront to centuries of oppression of people of color. But our reaction probably seems just as vapid to the animal rights people who are attuned to and derive meaning from protecting the dignity of animals and preventing their suffering at the hands of humans.
I can’t stand PETA. I think they are wrong about so many things, and frankly that they have really deranged policies and priorities, and take advantage of animal lovers who are by no means as radical as they are (especially considering that PETA considers pet ownership to be an oppressive institution for animals, yet draws their support substantially from pet owners). But just as I can’t understand how they can compare the plight of animals to oppression of humans, I’m sure they are appalled that I can’t appreciate the vast suffering inflicted on trillions of concious animals by humans for millenia, which they would probably argue is the single largest manifestation of oppression in the world by its sheer scale.
Always a nice ideological clusterfuck to be had.
So pet ownership is not feminist?
I guess the fact that I have two Yorkshire Terriers, whom I love and spoil very, very much, negates my feminist status. WTF.
And the breeding/slavery comparison offends me terribly, even as a white girl. Because there is NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO. I’m a committed vegetarian, but even I know that animals are *not people*. [Oh, and count me in with the “PETA is horrible” crowd.]
ol’jb,
You do make a good point, but my main problem with some of the animal rights crowd (that I don’t have with WOC feminists pointing out my privilege as a white woman) is that nonwhite women/men are still human. And it’s the humanity that, I think, makes us equal and should give us all the same rights and responsibilities. And when I exercise my privilege (or don’t notice it, which is more common in my case), it’s perfectly valid to point that out. But I don’t think that animal rights is at all a feminist issue (at least for me), because cats/dogs/elephants/whatever aren’t human and women and people of color are.
This isn’t to say that animals don’t have rights, or that the suffering of animals is perfectly okay, but they aren’t human, they don’t have the same cognitive abilities as humans (as a species–not individual people) have, and so I don’t see them as equal to us. Even some of the people defending animal rights in that Feministing thread referred to us protecting the ‘lesser’ beings when they were arguing about why breeders, etc. are bad. Generally speaking, an adult cat has more cognitive ability than a human infant, but that infant will grow and develop more, while the cat has all the brain power it will ever have. It just isn’t the same thing at all (and again, I’m speaking of humans and cats (pick whatever animal you like) as species, not of individuals). This is also why I don’t have any problems with eating meat, using medicine, wearing leather, etc, although I do try as much as possible to buy from local and/or cruelty free sources.
I’m starting to think that “interrogating your choices” is just another way to say “think hard about it, and you’ll be convinced I’m right!”
I always hesitate to say that I got my dog from a breeder for that exact reason. Not a puppy mill, a breeder with one breeding pair that produces maybe a litter a year - let’s face it, there’s a shortage of Neapolitan Mastiffs in shelters. I saved a long time to buy this particular dog because I am in LOVE with the breed, and I want to do my tiny bit to keep this bit of living classical history alive. There are some who will never understand that, and honestly? I think that’s a little sad, but to each her own - as long as she isn’t preaching at me (and she obviously hasn’t met Titus Pullo).
ks,
I basically concur with everything you say in your post. I’m personally of the opinion that while the considerations of animals deserve some protections, this isn’t even on the same plane as the complaints of oppressed humans. But to those who view the world through a different prism, there might not be so much of a difference.
A question I find interesting is when someone questions another person’s choices or behavior, when is it a legitmate complaint, and when is it just spouting off about a pet cause? When do you owe it to someone to examine their point of view, and when do you just say “fuck off”?
ol’jb, I think there is a difference in kind (and not just in degree) between some of the usual disagreements, on the one hand, and the conversation over animal rights that is going on now.
As I said above, there are issues where I can disagree with people but share significant common ground: we proceed from common core values and beliefs about how the world works, but down the line we differ on details of application or in our expectations of how some things will work out. In fact, as intractable and bitter as the divides over porn and sex work are, I think the starkness of the division is driven by passion and personal mistrust rather than unbridgeable philosophical differences, for the most part (at the margins, that’s not true, though.)
On the contrary, the trans rights/transphobia argument is really one of fundamentals. There’s no middle ground and no shared set of assumptions; each side’s core claims about how the world is are mutually exclusive.
Debates, once one accepts that people can keep companion animals for fun, over how to get and keep them are matters of degree. But when someone says that animals are different nations and that keeping them is slavery, there’s nothing for people who disagree to talk about. One either agrees with that or disagrees; there’s no middle ground and no shared assumptions. If animals are the equals of people then killing animals for food is no more justifiable than killing the neighbor’s children for food; then keeping a captive population to have cute household pet dogs is no more justifiable than keeping captive humans to breed household servants.
I’m just not on board with that. It’s not kinda sorta true; it’s not a “you have a point, but it won’t work the way you think” issue. It’s a yes or no proposition. I say no. I do not accept that animals are people too. I reject it. And there is no reasoning to that conclusion (Peter Singer not excepted; in fact I think Practical Ethics, with its endless slippery slopes, as easily justifies radical rejection of expansive application of rights as the adoption thereof).
So in that way, it is unlike the conversation between white and WOC feminists. It is more like the conversation (and I realize that this is inflammatory, but I’m trying to convey the scope of fundamental difference rather than cast the sides in historic roles) between antiracists and the Aryan Nation: there isn’t one.
Sorry Moxie! We’re doing our best.
No, Jessica, you guys are doing an awesome job! It’s just frustrating that this core group of 2 or 3 people can louse things up so badly.
So I take it that by the standards in that post — that breeding animals always always always equals slavery — one can never keep any sort of pet cat, not even a rescue kitty, without being accused of some form of slavedriving. Cats, of course, cannot survive on vegan diets.
I don’t like the idea of breeders (so many lovable animals living in shelters), but I don’t know what that has to do with feminism. I had never heard anyone make that connection before.
But then I always make it clear to new aquaintances that while I am a vegetarian and don’t buy fur (or even much leather anymore), I am definietly NOT a member of PETA. Those people are just plain wacko. (Comparing the poutry industry to the Holocaust? wtf?)
I saved a long time to buy this particular dog because I am in LOVE with the breed, and I want to do my tiny bit to keep this bit of living classical history alive.
Sorry, off topic: is this the breed that only recently became recognized by the AKC? Big, greyish, with lots of skin folds (and drool)? Those dogs are cool - though I can’t imagine how much they eat. (I have greyhounds
That’s what I can’t quite figure out about crazy animal rights people — do they genuinely not understand how offensive it is to claim that animals are the same as human beings who have been treated like (or worse than) animals for several hundred years? Or are they the racist assholes that they always come across as?
As far as the comparison with the issues between white and POC feminists, ol’jb is overlooking the main part of that argument: the POC feminists are upset that they are being spoken about or spoken to rather than listened to. Ironically, PETA takes the same position towards animals that some white feminists have taken towards POC feminists — they know “what’s best” for a group that can’t speak for themselves. The difference, of course, is that POC feminists can actually speak for themselves, unlike animals. Which, again, is why it’s offensive to compare human beings to animals.
I wish I could say something intelligent on this, but damn. People need perspective.
Just read the thread and why am I not surprised at who the poster was. This part was genius:
Only people who think their lives are more important than non-human animals’ lives can be offended by the comparison of human slavery to animal slavery.
And then she complained because people treated her like she was crazy for saying that human slavery and “animal slavery” are equally bad. Oh, and then threw in that she owns a dog, which she doesn’t seem to realize makes her — wait for it — a slaveowner herself. Nice ethics there.
I’m glad she’s not a cat owner, because she would have probably killed or blinded the poor thing by insisting it eat a vegan diet.
(My favorite crazy cat-vegan-diet advocate on the internet: “Well, pandas are in the carnivore family and don’t eat meat, so there’s no reason a cat has to!” Honey, look up “obligate carnivore,” see if pandas are on that list along with cats, and get back to me when you’re not so stupid.)
Check this out. I get an entry about myself on her blog and she tells people to write to me and go to my blog.
http://www.elainevigneault.com/more-on-monty.html
Is that a little fucked up? When I post my webaddy here, it’s because I want like-minded people to find my blog. But then Miss Crazy posts my addy and tells all her addled friends to message me. Fun…
Oh, and then threw in that she owns a dog, which she doesn’t seem to realize makes her — wait for it — a slaveowner herself. Nice ethics there.
As far as I can figure out, it’s only slavery if you buy the dog. If you get the dog from the shelter (and pay the fee), it’s mere servitude.
Wow. ‘Nother PETA-hater here. To pick just one of many points: vegan kitty diets…WTF?! Why can’t they accept the natural instincts of the critters they purport to help? Growing up, my family allowed our kitties free rein of the neighborhood. The felines weren’t going into the neighbors’ gardens for salads…said neighbors greatly appreciated the demoling. All of the cats’ free will, mind you…
I’ll see Elaine Vineguault’s “call me a loon” and add a “crazy fucking bitch.”
This particular strain of the animal rights movement makes me absolutely livid.
Perhaps Feministing deleted the posts, but I could have sworn that the first time I read that thread, there was also at least one person who actually compared breeding dogs to rape - with a line to the effect of, “Will that help the bitch deal with the fact that she was raped and forcibly impregnated?”
PETA nutjobs seriously do not grasp the seriousness of the effects racism and sexist have on oppressed classes. It’s sickening to see them repeatedly co-opt the suffering they do not understand and try to use to use it to further their own bass-ackwards ideology.
That may have been in an earlier thread; I know I saw that somewhere else, but I’ve been following this one closely and I don’t think it showed up there.
Perhaps Feministing deleted the posts, but I could have sworn that the first time I read that thread, there was also at least one person who actually compared breeding dogs to rape - with a line to the effect of, “Will that help the bitch deal with the fact that she was raped and forcibly impregnated?”
I’m pretty sure that popped up the first time Jessica posted Monty’s pic. Poor Monty, at the center of this storm…
*sigh*
i hate that some of my favorite blogs are being taken over by fundamentalists who feel entitlement to define the state of feminism by their own standards. i got about halfway through the Feministing thread before i gave up.
as an aside, animal rights have historically been an important counterpoint to the social conceptualization of species treatment. remember that the very first laws against child abuse in this country came about due to a court case that framed an abused child within the context of existing animal-abuse laws. the protection of animals was established as a priority in this society, before the protection of children was.
i do note the value of extremest dialogue, though; it is the extremes that define the mean. at the end of the day, i think we can all agree that the vast majority of animals produced for compensation, should have a higher quality of life.
My head is about to explode. We’ve been doing rural domestic animal rescue since the world began. Sat on the board of our tiny local humane society for years, back in the 80’s.
God bless responsible breeders and the people they screen before handing over a pup. God bless the people who educate themselves before getting a dog, and then get the dog that is right for them. (And God bless breed rescue.)
That said, until last year, you could not have paid me to own a purebred. We’ve always done the unadoptables, the underdogs, the mutts. Then some trashy backyard breeder dumped his/her heartworm-riddled dogs on our countryside. 3 of the found 9 ended up in my 180 acre “backyard.” Great Pyrs. All were microchipped, and traced to a mill in Indiana. The chips were never updated, so we could not find the slimy backyard breeder.
One of the bitterest rescues…with the happiest ending. ALL nine found in our area were successfully treated for heartworm and placed. Thought I had done my duty.
Not so. An “unadoptable” Pyr needed a home, and Pyr Rescue was desperate. So our first purebred is a giant. He joins a motley crew…lab this and malamute that, unidentifiable hound magic, and possible spaniel something…
Well done Jessica, in case you are still reading…those of us in the rescue trenches are so very grateful for folks like you. Point being…if you can’t do a shelter mutt, please fucking God, educate yourself and DO a reputable breeder.
I would definitely prefer to have people adopt cats and dogs from shelter rather than purchasing them. But it’s too easy to get on a high horse about this sort of stuff and forget that it’s not the animal’s fault for being bred. Being bred rather than being the result of an irresponsible pet owner who didn’t fix their animal doesn’t make an animal less deserving of a loving home.
*sigh*
i hate that some of my favorite blogs are being taken over by fundamentalists who feel entitlement to define the state of feminism by their own standards. i got about halfway through the Feministing thread before i gave up.
I know! It’s like that on a lot of threads.
Holy crap — I went over there and read the comments. Talk about pretzel logic. These folks need to get their own damn blogs.
Cute puppy and it looks like he’s being well taken care of.
As far as I can figure out, it’s only slavery if you buy the dog. If you get the dog from the shelter (and pay the fee), it’s mere servitude.
Hey, she may justify it to herself that she paid her money to a shelter instead of a breeder, but she still purchased that dog. Just because you got a bargain doesn’t mean that dog is less of a slave.
If a person is going to insist on ideological purity, she doesn’t get to write a free pass for her own actions. It’s like the vice president of PETA being an insulin-dependent diabetic because it’s important that she be able to fight against animal testing so people with similar conditions can be denied treatment.
God, I hate PETA.
“I would definitely prefer to have people adopt cats and dogs from shelter rather than purchasing them. But it’s too easy to get on a high horse about this sort of stuff and forget that it’s not the animal’s fault for being bred.”
I’m pretty torn about the whole thing. I understand the inclination to say “You should adopt, how can you buy an animal when there are so many already who need homes?” And yes, those animals generally are in desperate need of homes. But at the same time, it’s not like there’s any guarantee that the animal you didn’t buy because you decided to go to a shelter isn’t going to wind up at a shelter a few years down the road, only now they have abandonment issues or neglect-related health problems, and it may be harder for them to find a new home or live well even if they do.
Having been a ferret-owner for quite some time, I find it difficult to buy into the idea that purchasing a kit and making sure it’s cared for and tended to all its days is morally inferior to adopting the same kit three years down the line after it’s been neglected and abandoned at a shelter with no records. It’s especially difficult given that in the latter instance, the care I give stands a very good chance of being (sometimes severely) compromised at some point by my lack of information about previous health problems, behavioral issues, age, and diet.
My response:
http://www.elainevigneault.com/the-oppression-connection.html
Thomas is right. We do not share basic assumptions. You believe animals are your playthings and your property to do with what you choose and I think animals are independent beings that I should refrain from harming.
If ethics is derived from metaphysics, then we can never agree on ethics. You will always say I’ve gone too far and I will always say you haven’t gone far enough and there really isn’t a middle ground.
However, most animal rights activists were not. Most started as meat-eaters or worse. There is a progression some people go through when they learn more about animal intelligence, emotion, and communication and they realize humans and animals are more alike than not. And it becomes clear that if it’s wrong to harm human babies, elderly, incapacitated, or humans otherwise without power, then too it is wrong to harm animals when it’s not for self preservation.
Anyway, read my post if you’re curious:
http://www.elainevigneault.com/the-oppression-connection.html
Well, I adopted my two cats from a small animal clinic near my apartment. They were already a year old, they weren’t “kittens” anymore and I figured not very likely to be selected by people who wanted cute kittens (although there is still a very high cuteness factor), and they would probably have spent the rest of their lives in those cages. The animal hospital said that they don’t put down animals… so… I suppose that I wasn’t really rescuing an animal from death. It bothers me a little bit, but honestly I’m not sure if this hospital would occasionally donate “overstock” to a shelter that might put down animals.
Now when a cockatiel appeared outside of our window and started calling to us, all fucked up from having been trying to survive in Philadelphia on his own for weeks, and we took him in and gave him a home, I’m pretty sure I saved his life
Thomas is right. We do not share basic assumptions. You believe animals are your playthings and your property to do with what you choose and I think animals are independent beings that I should refrain from harming.
I’m curious, Elaine: if this is what you believe, why do you draw the line at purchasing a dog from a breeder, instead of having a dog at all? How does money changing hands between a breeder and a purchaser make the difference, particularly when adopters are charged a fee? Is your dog free?
You believe animals are your playthings and your property to do with what you choose and I think animals are independent beings that I should refrain from harming.
And yet you own an “independent being” in your dog. You keep it in your house. You decide what food it gets to eat and take it for medical treatment that it doesn’t want. You are preventing that dog from living the free and independent life that you say it should be leading and keeping it in captivity against its will.
How does that make you less of an oppressor than the rest of us pet owners? Again, you don’t get to decide that the actions that you take are pure, but everyone else takes the same actions, they’re evil slaveholders. That makes you a hypocrite.
You believe animals are your playthings and your property to do with what you choose and I think animals are independent beings that I should refrain from harming.
You see, Elaine, it’s statements like that (And the lovely gem you left on my blog) that piss people off. “I’m right and you’re wrong.” I sincerely doubt that anyone here thinks of animals as playthings. And how do you know what anyone else thinks anyway?
Dude, my animal thinks *I’m* a plaything. She decided that my dangling toesies were perfect for bitin’ at about 3:30 this morning.
Dude, my animal thinks *I’m* a plaything. She decided that my dangling toesies were perfect for bitin’ at about 3:30 this morning.
What, and you didn’t let her eat them? You are denying your animal the right to fresh human toes.
Yeah, but we won’t even get into what a horrible pet owner I am. :p
We lock our cat out of the bedroom at night so he doesn’t decide to walk across our foreheads at 2:30 am. Which, of course, means that we are Evil Oppressors and Slaveholders for not allowing our cat his God-given right to wake us up on a work night.
Really, these people always come across as the ones who never bothered to housebreak their dogs because it’s, like, hierarchical for me to impose my standards on the dog, man! He wouldn’t have to poop outside the house if he were living wild and free like he should! You never want to take your shoes off in their house.
Really, these people always come across as the ones who never bothered to housebreak their dogs because it’s, like, hierarchical for me to impose my standards on the dog, man! He wouldn’t have to poop outside the house if he were living wild and free like he should! You never want to take your shoes off in their house.
You just know that in the future she’ll have one of those houses with 27 dogs and 27 cats that the biohazard people have to come and clean out.
27? Try 98. Neighbors across the street (and upwind) had that many cats living in their house by the time the ASPCA was called in.
27? Try 98. Neighbors across the street (and upwind) had that many cats living in their house by the time the ASPCA was called in.
That’s horrible! That’s so cruel, especially to cats who need a decent amount of their own territory.
I think the 1 cat + 1 dog combo is perfect. We’ve always had cats and dogs at the same time and they get along pretty well.
It’s the usual story: they wanted kittens, they got kittens, they didn’t fix them in time (or they didn’t have enough time to fix them all), couldn’t find homes for them, and the exponential cat thing started happening, until the cats boiled down through the earth’s crust, hit the water table, and exploded up into the atmosphere, rendering the whole neighborhood unlivable for many cat half-lives. Fortunately for us, a cat half-life is around 1/7th of a year.
So now my Good Feminist Card will be revoked because I bought a purebred dog from a breeder?
Why didn’t anyone send me the memo?
Zuzu,
My dog came from a shelter. I was charged fees for the services provided to him. And those fees were technically a donation. Moreover, the shelter was a city-run animal shelter, paid for with tax dollars. It’s completely different than a for-profit breeder or pet store.
Mnemosyne,
1) Even if I’m a hypocrite, that doesn’t disprove any of my statements. Hypocrites say one thing and do another. Liars say things that aren’t true. I am not a liar.
2) My dog requires human intervention to survive. Not only was he obviously socialized at a young age to bond to humans, but he also requires regular grooming because of his breed. He couldn’t survive in the wild.
Moxie,
I’m not all that concerned with pissing people off. It doesn’t shut down the conversation and anger doesn’t prevent people from thinking. Some people dig in and defend ridiculous positions because they are committed to being right, but not everyone all the time. Many people move beyond the anger eventually and think about the issues.
There isn’t one right way to convince and persuade people. There are many different tactics. And I’m tired of you telling me how I ought to behave when you don’t give me the same level of respect and acceptance that you demand of me.
You, especially, have been extremely rude to me and I’m tired of it. I’m ignoring your comments from here on out.
Everyone,
If you have more questions, I suggest you use Google to find the answers.
While I will stand up and say something when I am offended or when I think someone’s done something wrong, I am not here to educate you or debate with you. I am not your personal punching bag or tutor. You don’t get to insult and attack me with one hand and ask for information and explanation with the other. If you are sincere in your questions, you’ll be sincere in your search for answers.
Zuzu,
My dog came from a shelter. I was charged fees for the services provided to him. And those fees were technically a donation. Moreover, the shelter was a city-run animal shelter, paid for with tax dollars. It’s completely different than a for-profit breeder or pet store.
No, no, no, no, no. We get the whole “breeder vs. pet store vs. shelter” question. What I’m asking you is how your ownership of your dog is any different than Jessica’s ownership of her dog simply because of who got the money.
After all, children born into slavery were considered property of their owners even if no money changed hands. So it’s not the money, it’s the relationship. How is yours fundamentally different than that of someone who bought their dog from a breeder or a pet store?
Even if I’m a hypocrite, that doesn’t disprove any of my statements. Hypocrites say one thing and do another. Liars say things that aren’t true. I am not a liar.
I’m sure you believe everything you say, the same way that some people are sincerely convinced that they were abducted by aliens. Not being a conscious liar, but being a conscious hypocrite, doesn’t make you a morally superior person.
My dog requires human intervention to survive. Not only was he obviously socialized at a young age to bond to humans, but he also requires regular grooming because of his breed. He couldn’t survive in the wild.
But you’re still participating in the slaveholding system. If you truly felt that pet ownership was slavery, you wouldn’t own one because you would realize that it makes you a slaveholder, too. Saying that slavery is bad on the one hand but owning slaves yourself on the other is morally worse than owning a pet that you see as a lesser being.
If you found a person by the side of the road and brought him/her home to do unpaid work for you without letting him/her leave, you’re still a slaveholder. Spending or not spending money doesn’t make the difference — it’s holding the other creature in bondage that makes a slave.
I have no slaves in my house — I have pets. They’re animals that I have a responsibility for that are not my equals. I can make routine decisions on their behalf that would be absolutely horrifying if made on behalf of a human being.
You don’t get to insult and attack me with one hand and ask for information and explanation with the other.
We’re asking you to defend your positions, and you refuse to do so, both here and at Feministe. Telling us to read random animal rights essays is not a defense of your personal beliefs — it’s a cop-out. Either you have beliefs that you’re willing to defend with evidence and logic, or you have emotional feelings that you realize cannot be defended, so you lash out at other people for their moral inferiority. I have a suspicion about which one it is.
Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I’ve read both threads and am shaking my head in disbelief. Humans - male and female - have had companion animals since the beginning of time. We have helped their species survive! Don’t people watch PBS?!
So, I “adopted” a retired racing greyhound, (which I’m pretty sure would be considered a “purebreed”), but technically, I don’t “own” him. According to the National Greyhound Association, his “breeder/trainer” is still listed as his registered owner. I would have to write them to have his ownership changed, but I haven’t done so and my understand is, very few greyhound adopters ever do. We don’t care whether we “own” them or not.
So, are greyhound adopters the only good feminist? (Tongue firmly in cheek.)
Well, I’d like to go on record as the “owner” of my dogs, and my cats, horses and layers. They are in fact, my “property.” And they are obliged to behave in ways that generally contribute to the happiness and well-being of the family… That this contribution invariably manifests within the nature of the critters is a happy fact.
BH is a runner, and the possible husky-malamute? mix lives for his runs up the ancient railroad track north of the property, although in all other respects, he is my dog. Runs with Dad, but hangs out with Mom.
BH is also an avid outdoorsman, and while I am “loved” by our possible sports breed mixes, they are Dad’s dogs, hunting and fishing with him, and at his side for every homefront activity, work or play.
The Pyr is mine…like the husky-malamute, a cruelly abused starvation case…and while the family works together to bring him all the way back…he has picked his person. He does what Pyrs do…patrols perimeters and livestock and household, wearing an invisible fence collar that grants freedom within restriction.
Yes, we own our dogs…and they own us. That dogs are bred for a specific function, to serve specific human desires and needs is a pretty silly objection when one considers the far uglier alternative.
And please show me one, just one, responsible breeder that does not admire and respect and cherish their breed, and indeed, all dogs in general? I’ll always be grateful for the advice and support I got from our area Irish Setter rescue organization when an IS mix came our way, and completely kicked our asses. IS lovers didn’t care that she was a mutt…she was part IS and that was good enough for those eeeevil breeders, who helped me to train and ultimately place her…on six acres…with two smitten adults and three kids.
Responsible breeders are a godsend…besides breeding animals that can work for families from all walks of life, they are as much a part of rescue as those of us who take on anything. Hell, breed rescue organizations handle 3/4’s of our rural dump cases, within days, and are there for us when we need guidance and support for understanding the characteristics and needs of the mixes.
I apologize for rambling…but animal rescue is what I do…and I am so taken aback by “Montygate” that rambling seems appropriate.
I’m sorry to keep harping here, but I just had a discussion with my best bud, The Psycho Vet Tech practioner from hell, who has been my partner in subverting rural legal statutes ever since our Humane Society went mainstream…and actually developed facilities…
For God’s sake…when Elaine gets the dogs abandoned on her porch with their entrails coming out their asses, and Elaine gets the emaciated, tick riddled momma cats leaving their one surviving kit in her barn before dying onsite, and maybe when Elaine gets the abandoned? dog in her front yard with a throat wound that allows her to see all the internal workings, and maybe when Elaine gets to handle the surprise of seven puppies born to an emaciated shepard type found under the abandoned trailer on the acreage next door and maybe when Elaine has to deal with the still alive feral cat pinned to the ground by an arrow from an asshole poacher…Elaine can bitch about a responsible purchase of a much loved baby from a responsible breeder by a responsible adopter…
25 years of this shit, and we now get to read Elaine’s self righteous crap? When Monty ends up “in the system,” then Elaine can talk. I won’t hold my breath.
Dear gods, Ahunt, how on earth did you deal with all of that and not decide that eliminating the humans was the logical solution?!?
Damn, ahunt, I’m with Laurie. How do you not go crazy?
Years ago…Best Bud quoted JFK.”If not us, who? If not now, when?”
Things are better today…more resources, raised awareness…
…but it can still get overwhelming from time to time.
So I don’t get Elaine’s riff at all. I’m over the moon when people are responsible…and I sure as hell have REAL issues to bitch about…
Let Elaine do what we do in our off hours, and methinks she will quickly develop an appreciation of responsible people too.
Going back and forth here, and I just realized that I’d taken over the discussion…
I’m so sorry. I was venting and folks should know that things are so much better than they were two decades ago (except for perhaps, for beagles, the most abused breed of all)…
We get the heartbreak monthly, sometimes weekly, but there was a time when we got it almost daily. Underground networks struggled for years…now we have fine help. Official organizations have made the world a better place for domesticated critters, taken some heavy weight off our backs, provided financial/health care resources and have just generally kept us sane.
And there is so much good. We get annual Xmas cards signed with muddy paw prints from rescues done over a decade ago. And sweet notes from people thanking us for caring for their lost pets. There is no better feeling than that which comes from restoring a lost mutt to a frantic, devastated family living twenty+ miles away. Or the note from a middle-aged widower, who rescued our rescue, and thanked us for easing his heartache with the unprincipled little devil we called “the Gypsy”…took us nine months to get her. (She survived on the plentiful road kill and the food we put out for her)
I just get tired sometimes, and need to bitch. I shouldn’t do it here.
Oh, no. Do it here.
I’m amazed you can still keep doing what you do. You’re doing important work.
Thank the young’uns, Zu. These days, we’re relying on them more and more.
And thank you. For the space to vent. I won’t make a habit of it…maybe just when we lose a coupla three or six hard cases in a bad streak?
Statistically, it’s only about 7% of the pet owner population who is irresponsible. That small amount does an incredible amount of damage. A breeder who sells an unaltered dog to an irresponsible person just seven times out of a hundred is a breeder who is contributing to the problem. And well, all breeders, no matter how responsible, make mistakes like that. I know of NO breeders who only sell neutered dogs. If they did, well, my opinions would change slightly. I’d still think it was wrong, but I wouldn’t think they’re contributing to the overpopulation problem nearly quite as much. But no, they sell puppies. That’s their business. People want puppies, not adolescent dogs or adult dogs. People like Jessica and Zuzu are afraid of adult, shelter dogs, because think shelter dogs are a “crapshoot” as if breeder puppies aren’t.
Moreover, I regularly volunteer with animal rescue organizations. I spent two weeks sleeping in a sleeping bag in an abandoned building in New Orleans helping with cat rescue. So don’t give me any of that shit about how I’m from the big city and don’t have a clue. You don’t know me, my past, or anything about my rescue efforts. So just STFU about that and stop getting personal. Stop attacking the person, start attacking the argument.
People like Jessica and Zuzu are afraid of adult, shelter dogs, because think shelter dogs are a “crapshoot” as if breeder puppies aren’t.
Oh, fuck you sideways, Elaine. Don’t lie about me on my own blog.
I got my goddamn dog as an adult from a shelter, I got my previous dog as an adult from a shelter, and my family got adult dogs from shelters except for the two puppies we raised for the Seeing Eye.
I’ve also rescued and fostered adult dogs who’d been abandoned in the park. I’ve been bitten seriously twice, both times by dogs who’d never displayed any previous tendencies toward aggression.
And based on that, I know that shelter dogs can be a crapshoot. You can’t be guaranteed that any particular dog’s issues will all be known, nor will you be able to tell whether they have serious health issues (I know you keep extolling the purebreds in shelters, but a lot of those are rescued from puppy mills, and so may have serious health problems that are unforeseen). If it’s important to you that a dog is a known quantity, a shelter is probably not the way to go.
My previous dog was one of the aggressive ones, and I no longer have her because she tried to tear my face off. Junebug also came from a shelter, and has a whole different set of issues, but none that involves aggression towards me.
So take your self-righteousness and moral scolding and fuck off.
but a lot of those are rescued from puppy mills, and so may have serious health problems that are unforeseen).
YES! And not just health issues, but behaviorial issues…responsible breeders often keep their “problem children” as neutered pets…but they certainly do not send those problems downrange.
Also, most responsible breeders require that dogs be returned to them rather than being placed with new adopters, and ask to be notified of ANY issues that appear down the line.
Elaine, please know that I do not equate puppy mills with responsible breeders…
Again, the infamous Great Pyr rescue of 2006 traced all nine of the dumped Pyrs to a mill out of Indiana. Word is that the mill is doing “shelties” now. SIGH
Shelter dogs are indeed a crapshoot…never mind that we have a great working relationship with our area shelter. Bear in mind, the “unadoptables” never even make the cut…and that the shelter evaluation can never account for all the possible problems that can arise. Seemingly healthy animals may indeed have compromised immune systems, with problems showing up further down the line than anyone could have predicted. Seemingly calm animals may have hidden, totally weird quirks that manifest only in particular circumstances. (We once disconnected our doorbells, because one terrier? type, renamed Mr Piddles, would pee on the floor every time the doorbell rang. Needless to say, Pid remained with us for his long, bossy life.) And aggression may be buried deep, only to rise to the surface as adopted animals become more sure of their place in the household.
I’m a vocal advocate of shelter dogs, but they can and do come with issues. One approach is the Fostering Families program, families who work to reclaim adoptable mutts with issues before the shelter places them up for adoption.
And I’m rambling again…off to work a commission.